|  Author | Topic: Medical treatment with blood and derivates! (Read 439 times) |
talkactive
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|  | Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Thread Started on Jan 23, 2007, 7:09am » | ![[Quote]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/quote.gif) |
Hello to all of you!
I have maked some research in question of what the Scriptures tells us about the blood and there is for me not doubt that it is forbidden to eat blood. Genesis 9:4 and Leviticus 17:13.
It will therefore be highly appreciated if ones kindly will make your comments to what comes forth in Leviticus 17:15, where the Scriptures allow a Jew and an Alien to eat all the blood in a carcass in an emergency situation:
And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean.
The verse clearifies the main points that it was possible and questions of:
1. Eating a dead animal with all its coagulated blood in.
2. It was valid for both Jews and Aliens, where Aliens was not under the Mosaic Law, like Noah and his family.
3. It must have been in an emergency situation, who likes to and will eat a carcass in a normal life situation.
4. It was not a gross sin and the penalty was not to the death, if the person(s) cleanse and maked a ceremonial bath before evening and the matter was settles between God and the Jewish Society.
Normally it was a gross sin to eat blood and touch a carcass and that raise the question?
Is coagulated blood not blood anymore and can we then eat blood sausages?
If we look at the situation when Sauls men eat all the blood in the animals in 1 Samuel 14:31-36 and when Jesus disciples worked at the Sabbath and when David and his men eat the bread in the temple as described in Matthew 12:1-12, where all acts was gross sins with death penalty, but all was in an emergency situation and where Jesus said, how more does not a human means, gives a clear indication, that an emergency situation break the law, otherwise he wouldn have referred to it and have condemned like the Scribes and Pharisees!
It was only the Scribes and Pharisees who violate the Christian law, why Jesus condemned them as described in Matthew 23:23!
So the question is can Christians eat all the coagulated blood in a dead animal and use the blood for medical treatment, when no life has been taken and it is an emergency situation and the blood is an organ tissue, like a heart, liver and kidney, to sustain life?
Christian love to all of you.
Talkactive.
Romans 13:8!
Ps. It has to be mentioned that blood as medicine or any other medicine isn't good medicine, since there will always be side effects, opposite the healing Jesus and his disciples afforded, showing what to come, but in the meantime we have to deal with our lives and be able to make personal decisions in accordance to Galatians 6:5!
Ecclesiastes 1:18!
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
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People can’t hear and carry the truth, because the lies are tickling their ears!
Jeremiah 8:8!
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
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Ralph
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #1 on Jan 23, 2007, 10:03am » | |
talkative,
very good post. I hope you post it elsewhere also, as this is pretty much a dead forum. not even the mods come here anymore.
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talkactive
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #2 on Jan 24, 2007, 3:27am » | |
Hi Ralph!
Thank you very much for the forwarded information.
The reason why I posted it here was for 2 reasons as to follow:
1. It was because the Welcome page at "Common truth" has a topic called "Blood" and I would like to have the board Owner or Administrator to respond, because it seems that the content is a left behind from the Watchtower teachings rather from the Scriptures and I also find it as a great responsibility if somebody dies because of that information and something that it obviously in disharmony with the Scriptures and Christian principles.
2. At the other time I saw that nearly all of the posts was of ancient dates, but as you, it was my hope, like you recommended me to do, the more places it appears, the more like there will be somebody who starts to think or maybe reflect about the Watchtowers misrepresentation of the blood issue, where their ban have sent thousands of Brothers, Sisters and their Children into a premature death, like those mentioned in Jeremiah 7:31 and what Jim Jones was responsible for with his fellow men. Revelation 21:8!
At last, for your and all others kind information, the link where nearly everbody have moved to is, as I understand it: http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/index.php
Christian love to all of you
Talkactive.
Romans 13:8!
Ps. It has to be mentioned that blood as medicine or any other medicine isn't good medicine, since there will always be side effects, opposite the healing Jesus and his disciples afforded, showing what to come, but in the meantime we have to deal with our lives and be able to make personal decisions in accordance to Galatians 6:5!
Ecclesiastes 1:18!
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
------------------------------------------------------------------
People can’t hear and carry the truth, because the lies are tickling their ears!
Jeremiah 8:8!
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
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melancholymuse
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #3 on Jan 31, 2007, 4:15pm » | |
Quote:talkative,
very good post. I hope you post it elsewhere also, as this is pretty much a dead forum. not even the mods come here anymore. |
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I'd like to know what makes you say that -- just because we aren't always answering every post? Please don't make assumptions.
As we've stated before, this board is not for us mods to sound off our beliefs, it's mainly for the visitors to the CommonTruth main site to discuss topics or questions amongst themselves. That way people are getting a more rounded view on things, not just OUR viewpoint.
Visitors to the main site would email questions to us, and we'd answer. Then we felt it would be better if they also discussed their thoughts with others, y'know, to better be able to test the teachings. We aren't competing with other forums as to who gets more traffic. It's merely another tool to help others test the knowledge they get from the bible.
If that makes us "dead" in your opinion, then you are missing the whole point of this forum. #blink#
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melancholymuse
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #4 on Jan 31, 2007, 4:18pm » | |
TalkActive,
I have a long shift to work tonight, but I have tomorrow off. I'll address your post then. #salute#
Love in Christ,
Tami
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melancholymuse
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #5 on Feb 2, 2007, 12:22am » | |
Okay, let's see if I can answer your questions:
1 -- The scripture at Leviticus 17:15
God just gave the command to bleed out all meat in the previous verse, therefore common sense dictates bleeding the meat you found if you don't want to be cut off from God. There is nothing in this passage that states the animal doesn't have to be bled.
As for coagulation: Common sense dictates that a person will not eat an animal if one doesn't know how long it's been dead. A fresh kill does not instantly coagulate: Blood can take as long as 30 minutes to coagulate, therefore if the animal isn't still bleeding you can't tell how long it's been there and would thus be a foolish thing to eat it. Therefore, if an Israelite came upon a dead animal that he or she saw was fit to eat, they wouldn't need to worry about coagulation hindering the bleeding process because it would be bleeding.
However, if you note the rules for handling a dead body (Leviticus 11:24-25) you will see that it is the exact same thing being applied here in Chapter 17. Therefore, this "unclean" deal is in regard to handling the dead body, as a reminder to them.
In conclusion, we feel that it is clearly meant for the body to be bled since God just got done telling them to do that, and then a reminder about the clean-ness ritual that was several chapters back.
2 -- Emergency situations
The Saul situation doesn't call it an emergency: It clearly states that the people were greedily taking the meat, and that Saul made them stop and do it properly. I don't know of many emergencies in which someone stops you and makes you do things properly. Would you stop your children from climbing out a window to escape a fire, and make them go through the proper door and hall instead? NO, for it is an emergency. The bible says Saul's men were acting with greed, not a state of emergency. As for Jesus and his men on the sabbath, that wasn't a breaking of the Sabbath because Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). He was not bound to the sabbath laws, and neither were his associates. And again, there is no reference to an emergency here. They were simply hungry and wanted a meal, just like anyone else on any day.
3 -- On a separate post, you stated your concerns about people dying over the blood issue, possibly dying over the information in our essay. Did you read the entire essay? I don't think you did. For if you did, you would have seen that we didn't condemn either the taking or the refusal of transfusions. We simply gave the information as we understand it to be and let the reader decide what to do. In fact, here is the direct copy and paste from part of the essay:
Does abstinence from blood also include abstaining from blood transfusions? Again, the only direction the bible gives concerning blood is that it must be poured out onto earth, and yet is only in reference towards killed or dead animals, as shown above. Abstaining from a dead animal's blood shows respect for God's right to the soul/life in the blood, thus we should not be using the blood/life from a dead creature, for it belongs to God -- the giver of life (Psalms 24:1, Isaiah 42:5, 1 Corinthians 10:26). When a living being is finished "using" its life, that life is supposed to be returned back to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). This is why we are to pour it into the dirt, for that way we aren't using it for our own purposes in any way.
Coupled with that, is the fact that God demands that we deeply respect all life, that we do nothing to cause another's death if we can avoid it. This is shown in that He demanded the Israelites to install safety devices when building (Deuteronomy 22:8), He provided Cities of Refuge for those who caused accidental deaths -- the manslayer was safe from revenge so long as he remained in one of the Cities of Refuge (Numbers 35:9-29), and deliberate murderers were to pay for the life they took by losing their own lives (Genesis 9:6, Numbers 35:30-32, 2 Samuel 4:11 ). Yahweh considers all lives to be precious:
Humans in general (Exodus 20:13)
Wealthy men (Job 2:6)
Orphans and widows (Jeremiah 7:7)
Unborn children (Exodus 21:22-23)
Animals (Matthew 10:29).
Therefore, it is illogical that a God who regards life as a precious commodity would turn around and demand that we refuse to share of ourselves to help a life continue.
We fail to see where any of this is demanding people to abstain from blood transfusions. We also fail to see where this is a "left behind" from the Watchtower, since the WT demands that transfusions be avoided.
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Seek ye Jehovah while he may be found; call ye upon him while he is near (Isaiah 55:6, ASV) |
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Ralph
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #6 on Feb 7, 2007, 2:59pm » | |
Quote:
Quote:talkative,
very good post. I hope you post it elsewhere also, as this is pretty much a dead forum. not even the mods come here anymore. |
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I'd like to know what makes you say that -- just because we aren't always answering every post? Please don't make assumptions.
As we've stated before, this board is not for us mods to sound off our beliefs, it's mainly for the visitors to the CommonTruth main site to discuss topics or questions amongst themselves. That way people are getting a more rounded view on things, not just OUR viewpoint.
Visitors to the main site would email questions to us, and we'd answer. Then we felt it would be better if they also discussed their thoughts with others, y'know, to better be able to test the teachings. We aren't competing with other forums as to who gets more traffic. It's merely another tool to help others test the knowledge they get from the bible.
If that makes us "dead" in your opinion, then you are missing the whole point of this forum. #blink# |
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I think you have missed the whole point of this board. who in their right mind would go to the trouble and expense of putting up a board and then just let it go stagnate? Maybe your involvement with a church of the world has taken you away from the truth. well to each their own I guess.
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melancholymuse
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #7 on Feb 10, 2007, 12:35am » | |
 ??? Say what??????
WE created the board....WE know what the intent is. This board isn't a board unto itself, it's an "accessory" to the main site at www.commontruth.com
You said:
who in their right mind would go to the trouble and expense of putting up a board and then just let it go stagnate?
Our reply:
Neither was there an expense to this board ( this is a complete freebie) nor was it any trouble (within minutes we had this board up and running). Do you see the ads at the top of the pages? That's how the company who hosts us can make it free, they put whatever ads they want, and we get to use it for no cost. You are mistaken in how much money and effort it was to start this.
You also said:
Maybe your involvement with a church of the world has taken you away from the truth.
Do you mean "the Truth" as in the Jehovah's Witnesses? I don't want to respond under an assumption on my part, so if you could clarify what you intend to mean by "the truth" I'll be glad to reply.
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Seek ye Jehovah while he may be found; call ye upon him while he is near (Isaiah 55:6, ASV) |
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Ralph
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #8 on Feb 11, 2007, 12:17pm » | |
No i meant the truth from the Bible. you know your new church does not have it. but you ignorantly pray to Jehovah , while worshipping at a church, to provide a new place for you. feasting at the table of the demons does not mix. i am surprised at your ignorance. But we all know how righteous you are, and how right you are.
Free or not , it is stupid to set up a site that you dont post on and keep the conversation going, but can frequent other sites. shows how fickle one can be.
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melancholymuse
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #9 on Feb 11, 2007, 2:07pm » | |
Show me a church/religion/group that has the 100% complete bible truth, and I"ll go there instead. I promise.
One of the reasons I go to a church instead of the Kingdom Halls is because at least the churches don't try to convince people they don't belong in the Kingdom of God. They also don't try to convince people to trust in a group of uninspired men -- they continually direct the congregants towards God instead. And lastly, this Church thing isn't a permanent solution for my family, it's just an "interim"until we can find something better. I just ordered some books from Amazon that explain the origins of church traditions and such, and they've been very enlightening. It's amazing how far removed from original Christianity everybody is today. We working on starting our own little bible discussion group in our local area, something stripped of all the pagan crap.
And I have to say, you are a tad bit judgemental. CommonTruth has never claimed to have 100% perfect truth, we've always recommended testing all the information, and we've always agreed that we aren't especially inspired of God. Therefore, your accusations are empty and foolish and makes you look rather spiteful.
And we don't need your acceptance to exist in the reasons we choose. If you hate this place so much, one has to wonder why you even bother to come. Perhaps you have too much time on your hands? Whatever. You will start being a courteous poster (just like everyone else here is) or you will be edited. This is NOT H20.
And that includes remaining off topic. This topic is about blood, so we will get back to it right now, or be edited.
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Seek ye Jehovah while he may be found; call ye upon him while he is near (Isaiah 55:6, ASV) |
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ralph
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #10 on Feb 13, 2007, 7:50am » | |
considered my self told off! lol. 
the truth hurts, does it not.
please move to suitable thread .
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talkactive
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #11 on Feb 16, 2007, 2:59pm » | |
Quote:| Okay, let's see if I can answer your questions:. |
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Dear Melancholymuse!
We are in principles agree in question of transfusions and medical treatment with blood and derivates, since the life is sacred, not the blood but of course there is a close connection, without blood no life and in medical treatment, there is no life that has bee taken, opposite and when the Watchtower Society allow tons of killed animals blood, where lives has been taken in form of Hemopure from www.biopure.com to be used at their members, in clear opposition to what comes forth in Leviticus 17:13!
So when we look at the blood as a metaphor for life, it makes sense and means then, if an organisation or a person kill another person or is responsible for that a person die, in leak of help and medical treatment at hand, whether there is blood screed or not, the result will be ending up in a situation of bloodguilt.
What I liked to say was the meaning of the Scriptures, since the Israelites were given a higher standard than Noah and the Gentiles as comes forth:
Quote:1 -- The scripture at Leviticus 17:15
God just gave the command to bleed out all meat in the previous verse, therefore common sense dictates bleeding the meat you found if you don't want to be cut off from God. There is nothing in this passage that states the animal doesn't have to be bled. |
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If you look at Exodus 22:31 and compare it with Leviticus 17:15, there is now 2 possibilities given: 1. Give it to the dogs. 2. Contradictory to eat it!
22:31 And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat any flesh that is torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs.
If it only was a question to bleed an animal within 30 minutes from it was dead. How do you explain that and why should “any flesh” be given to the dogs if it only was a question of to be bleed or not within 30 minutes. Leviticus 17:15 talks about eating a carcass and by a wild beast torn animal. Was there different flesh and why was it "any flesh"?
When we then look at Acts 15:29, it is also mentioned to abstain from animals strangled and that leads us to your answer about coagulation. A strangled animal could be a healthy one without a disease, opposite the self dead and by a wild beast torn animal (many animals have for human dangerous bacteria in their mouth and teeth’s) and could be bleed within 30 minutes. Will you pls. explain?
15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Quote:As for coagulation: Common sense dictates that a person will not eat an animal if one doesn't know how long it's been dead. A fresh kill does not instantly coagulate: Blood can take as long as 30 minutes to coagulate, therefore if the animal isn't still bleeding you can't tell how long it's been there and would thus be a foolish thing to eat it. Therefore, if an Israelite came upon a dead animal that he or she saw was fit to eat, they wouldn't need to worry about coagulation hindering the bleeding process because it would be bleeding.
However, if you note the rules for handling a dead body (Leviticus 11:24-25) you will see that it is the exact same thing being applied here in Chapter 17. Therefore, this "unclean" deal is in regard to handling the dead body, as a reminder to them.
In conclusion, we feel that it is clearly meant for the body to be bled since God just got done telling them to do that, and then a reminder about the clean-ness ritual that was several chapters back. |
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Have you heard about the airplane that crashed in the mountains where the surviving persons eat parts of their dead fellow passengers and didn’t get punish for cannibalism? Have you any experience of hunger at all, what people are willing to eat to survive in extreme situations and when it comes to clear directives for handling a carcass for an Israelite, why should eating and strangling at all be mentioned, if a self dead and by wild beast thorn animal was unclean?
Quote:2 -- Emergency situations
The Saul situation doesn't call it an emergency: It clearly states that the people were greedily taking the meat, and that Saul made them stop and do it properly. I don't know of many emergencies in which someone stops you and makes you do things properly. Would you stop your children from climbing out a window to escape a fire, and make them go through the proper door and hall instead? NO, for it is an emergency. The bible says Saul's men were acting with greed, not a state of emergency. As for Jesus and his men on the sabbath, that wasn't a breaking of the Sabbath because Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). He was not bound to the sabbath laws, and neither were his associates. And again, there is no reference to an emergency here. They were simply hungry and wanted a meal, just like anyone else on any day. |
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There was death penalty for eating blood and Jesus disciples didn’t eat blood but corn, but it was a question of working at the Sabbath and principles of equal penalty to the death in both cases, so when Saul’s men eat the blood, even that it in your translation say with greed, which makes it even worse, the penalty was to the death, but they didn’t get killed. The only thing Saul did was a sacrifice and corrects the men, like the ceremonial bath mentioned in Leviticus 17:15, when a Jew or an Alien had eaten a carcass and by the way who like to eat a carcass in a normal life situation, when you don’t know the reason for it has self died, when it only was a question of health and to be clean.
Christian love to all of you.
Talkactive.
Ps. The Watchtowers hypocrisy in the blood question can be seen and are documented at http://www.ajwrb.org
Ecclesiastes 1:18!
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People can’t hear and carry the truth, because the lies are tickling their ears!
Jeremiah 8:8!
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
NB. It has to be mentioned that blood as medicine or any other medicine isn't good medicine, since there will always be side effects, opposite the healing Jesus and his disciples afforded, showing what to come, but in the meantime we have to deal with the life itself as sacred and be able to make personal decisions, to sustain the most important for Jehovah and each individual, the life itself in accordance to Galatians 6:5 and not being forced by threats and sanctions into a premature death, by man made doctrines, in opposition to what comes forth in 2 Corinthians 1:24 and 1 Peter 5:3! Like Tully and thousands of others haven’t been able to do:
http://www.energeticsolutions.com.au/tully_story.pdf
Among other places documented in Awake from May 22, 1994! Thousands have died......
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melancholymuse
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #12 on Feb 19, 2007, 6:08am » | |
We haven't been ignoring you. We are getting over a nasty respiratory infection that's been running through the family. We will be getting back to you in a couple more days. Thank you in advance for your patience! #heart#
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talkactive
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #13 on Feb 28, 2007, 6:15pm » | |
Quote:| We haven't been ignoring you. We are getting over a nasty respiratory infection that's been running through the family. We will be getting back to you in a couple more days. Thank you in advance for your patience!#heart# |
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Dear Melancholymuse!
It was sad to hear, even that it was more than a nasty respiratory infection, as one of you informed about at the Paradise Cafe board.
I really hope it goes in the right direction and wanna wish you all the best in your recovery. #thumbsup#
With love
Talkactive!
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melancholymuse
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| | Re: Medical treatment with blood and derivates!
« Reply #14 on Mar 2, 2007, 1:42am » | |
Yes, the "respiratory infection" turned into asthmatic bronchitis! UGH! Myndlon had to take me to the emergency room where I got IV steroids, magnesium and breathing treatments. I was sent home with three more prescriptions and time out of work.
THEN....
I get back to work, where the stomach bug was going around....and yep, I got THAT too! #sick#
So anyway, I'm just about back to normal health again....whew!
Thank you for your concern. #flowered#
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